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    Cos they had to do that in post-production. Does it look yellow? SL: It's a shame, actually. Because I thought I want to do synchronised swimming in a urinal, with a synchronised swimming team.

    And we got the Olympic synchronised swimming team. It was an amazing day. We were in the tank for hours. And there was this underwater camera guy, who came with the place, the tank place, which was out in Essex.

    And I actually got in training for it. For a year, I went on a diet, thinking I need to be able to swim underwater.

    So I did all this stuff, swimming through these women, underwater. And then the underwater camera didn't work. And you can just see in the background, of one of these shots, there's a circle of swimmers with me going through it, and that's all that survived.

    But what that did, in the edit, was threw the focus onto the surface, and they used a lot of shots from above, with us all circling a giant cigarette butt, and it looked really good.

    SL: That is Miserere by Allegri. It was a secret piece of music which could only be heard in the Vatican, but then Mozart, as a child genius composer, got in there and heard it, and went away and transcribed it.

    Initially we were going to go with Busby Berkeley music, but then we thought 'This looks like kitsch, or irony.

    Will it sustain a degree of sincerity, instead? SL: I hope people think it's funny. It's such an over-the-top, self-aggrandising, over-dramatising response to this childhood incident.

    It strikes me that you're the opposite of an indie snob's favourite band: instead of it being cool to say "I prefer the early stuff", it's "I prefer the later stuff".

    Do you ever meet people who hate your Nineties work, and only like what you're doing now? SL: Yeah, yeah I do. Also, people who had never heard of it, which is interesting.

    Well, with that stuff, right, I mean I was always doing stand-up on the circuit, and I think in my head, that was my thing , and the double-act stuff was this other thing.

    Which weirdly became much much better-known. I must have done five gigs a week, club gigs, through the Nineties. And we probably did about 30 a year, for four years, as the double-act.

    There was one tour where the improvisations got really good, towards the end. And of course it was never documented, because things weren't, in those days, were they?

    I really liked the first series of Fist Of Fun , and it's what we wanted to do at the time. It had a sort of bricolage, plastered-together sort of feel, which was what my sensibility was at the time.

    But then the second series was conditional upon it being more Light Entertainment. With a shiny floor. They even did something to a band's music without permission.

    There was a band called Globo, who used to be Basti, who did the music. And without their permission, the producer got it and put all tones under it and cleaned it up.

    And I remember saying, 'You have to tell them! The second series, for me, was like a drift into Light Entertainment packaging.

    And I sort of sleepwalked into the rest of it. There's lots of bits, in things that we did, that I like.

    But it wasn't my plan, in the Eighties, to be in Light Entertainment-y sketch shows. I have to admit I am one of those people.

    I was never really on board with your Nineties work, apart from a few bits here and there notably the trendy teacher character in Fist Of Fun , and generally found it a bit studenty and overly pleased-with-itself.

    But I'm an absolutely obsessive fan of everything post- Jerry Springer. SL: Yeah, and I understand that. And I don't mind. It feels like a long time ago, now.

    And also, it's of-its-time in a way that I hope the stand-up isn't. And there were huge cultural shifts going on, weren't there? Where by about '' Because there was a perceived PC orthodoxy.

    And where has that got us? Yeah, thanks for that. I'm sure the architects of New Laddism, which is David Baddiel and Frank Skinner, didn't really imagine that it would end up basically being a mode of government.

    In the TV series Chris Morris is credited as script editor, and also cross-examines you intermittently during the show. Previously it was Armando Iannucci.

    But how much editing actually happens? SL: Arm didn't do much, cos he was in America doing Veep. He sort of signed off at the end. Chris comes to see it, every few months.

    What he's most useful at is helping me with what parts would transition well into film material. Also, there's a bit in the fourth episode where the punchline is, 'The public-private partnership', and he said 'That joke doesn't really make sense.

    It's not good enough. One, I'll leave it in but make it worse. And two, I know that he's noticed it.

    So when it comes to the improvised interview thing, he'll probably criticise it. Which will be good. The film stuff, I used to really labour over writing it, but now I sort of delegate a bit.

    For example, the 'Orienteering With Napalm Death' thing. My original idea was to have it a bit like Michael Bentine's Potty Time , with a wide shot of a model landscape with these tiny figures of Napalm Death moving over it quickly.

    Then I said to Tim Kirkby, the director, 'If you had to make a rock video of Napalm Death, and they're orienteering, what would you do? So I basically take out all the scripts, for the film bits, and I say to the team, 'If you were doing this for real, what would you do?

    The main thing about having Chris as a script editor is that there's not much script editing you can do, because it is what it is. It stands or falls live.

    But the fact that he's seen it and knows it means that on the last day of filming, when I sit down for four hours with him and I don't know what he's going to say, he knows the stuff inside-out and he knows how to undermine me.

    In the interview clips, he plays a sort of disappointed headmaster, and you're like a sheepish schoolboy.

    And that works really well. Because, like you said, the character was more arrogant in the first series, and now that I'm seen on some level as a success, I need to be smashed down again.

    Presumably any ill feeling from that era must be water under the bridge SL: We've never really talked about it. It wasn't much to do with Chris.

    What happened was, there were four writers who weren't performers. What a sad loss, a very nice man as well. Anyway, a lot of the characters, if we didn't invent them, we named them or whatever.

    So when it came to doing it for TV, our agent said that we ought to get part-ownership of things. We were offered a very generous amount of minutes-per-week writing, but we held on for a share of them, which seemed like the just thing to do at the time.

    We were told that wasn't happening for anyone, but it did happen, with Patrick Marber, who ended up getting a percentage of Alan Partridge, even though he'd not been involved in the initial writing of it.

    I always worried that this had never been resolved, and there was bad vibes about it, although there never seemed to be when I met people involved.

    I said, 'We might die in this flight, so let's get all this sorted out. So I read this book and thought, 'Oh, I'm glad that's all sorted out.

    So it's a nice thing to find out, to read about yourself. That I was a quite reasonable person, even though I have no memory of it. It's fun for us to say we invented Alan Partridge, but we didn't.

    We invented a sports writer, and Steve Coogan did this voice, and that was it. It wasn't much to do with us. But other people have made more out of less, haha!

    You often mention that people repeatedly nag you to tell jokes, and just be a gag-merchant, even though you're trying to achieve something different.

    Which brings to mind another musical comparison: Scott Walker. SL: Well, you know, basically I've forgotten how to write those sort of jokes.

    And when I do one by accident, I'll put that in and make a big deal of it. Because the rhythm's so odd. The problem with doing them at all is that it then gives people who make trailers something to work with.

    Then they make a weirdly unrepresentative trailer. Partly the reason I do it is because there aren't jokes, and I want to show people: I could do it, I could do it, but then I'd have to develop a different kind of character.

    If people think you can do something, they trust you more to not do it. With a lot of the free jazz guys, and I know this is something people take the piss out of me for but I do find it helpful, when John Coltrane's doing all his free stuff, the beginning and the end is my favourite, cos people know he can play.

    So when he does the free stuff, he's not gone mad — he's chosen to do it. He must have some sort of plan. But what a lot of the free people do now, they just do the middle, haha.

    So people go, 'Oh, they can't play. SL: Yeah, he says, 'Many are prepared to suffer for their art. Few are prepared to learn how to draw.

    When I really tried to start again, in , and really think about what I was trying to do in stand-up — and I had to do something, because I was in a lot of trouble financially and I knew I had to make something work — that's partly why I started to take the piss out of famous comedians.

    You can't say, 'It's failed because it's not that. But the problem with that is, had I known how well it might do, I probably wouldn't have said that, about those people.

    Because the things I said hang around, and it doesn't make sense now you're doing four nights at Brighton Dome.

    Another weird thing, related to that, is that all phases of your life exist simultaneously. As if you're responsible for them all, now.

    Actually, even this series, it's got in under the wire but if you were starting it from scratch now, you'd have to think about Europe and all these other things.

    So the stuff's already That's interesting because, even though your feelings on shows like Mock The Week are well known, I wondered if you ever hanker for a format in which you could deal with bang-up-to-the-minute material, ripped from that day's headlines, rather than the broadly topical subject matters you deal with in Comedy Vehicle?

    SL: Well, no. Because I associate that with the world of work. Because as well as doing temp jobs and doing circuit gigs in little pubs, for the first four or five years I was in London I was writing for Week Ending on Radio 4 and things like that, where you had to come up with topical jokes.

    And a lot of the radio things that me and Rich did, and when we wrote for things like Armando Iannucci's show, you'd basically get all the papers, and then you'd do mathematical equations about how things fit together.

    So it just feels like maths homework, to me. I did so much of it when I was young that it feels like an office job. If there's a fifth series, what I'd try and do for that, if I did news stuff, is that I'd take all the names out of it.

    And make it about big global trends in economics and so on. So you don't lock it down. For example, in the news today, scientists say we're in a new thing, not the Holocene age but the Anthropocene age.

    Which means we now define our age as one where climate is controlled by man, which it previously hadn't been.

    Well, that's not going away, is it? There's no danger of that feeling out-of-date. That's an example of something it would be good to do: broadly topical.

    SL: I want us to stay in. Principally, above all, for environmental issues. For example, this [ gestures at London traffic in the street behind us ] is two or three times over EU limits, out here.

    And what Boris Johnson — who wants to leave — does, to avoid the fines, is that when the particles get too heavy, he sends people with anti-freeze to spray the air around the readers, so the particles stick to the ground.

    That is documented. Because he doesn't want to pay the fine, he'd rather do that. He's let two of the machines go offline in central London and not fix them.

    But the reason we've got clean rivers, the return of various species, the last line in our battle for the defence of the environment against capitalism is the weird EU laws that say, 'You must have ten birds in this wood', and stuff like that.

    And everyone takes the piss out of them, but everything's dying at a hell of a rate. So above all, I'm pro-EU for environmental reasons.

    I want Europe to defend us, and our environment, against our own government. And other things, like disabled access is all because of the EU. And if you've ever been on the wrong side of a moral panic — and I'm talking about the Jerry Springer: The Opera thing, not the ATP thing — then things like the European Court of Human Rights would be very important to you.

    It's all very well people being against it when they've never been threatened with being tried for blasphemy or whatever, but at some point you might be the one who would benefit from cross-territorial human rights legislation.

    All the stuff about money and trade agreements, fine, talk about that till you're blue in the face. But that's my reason.

    So I think all those things are reasons to stay in. And also because it will annoy Boris Johnson. Do you think there's an argument that Boris Johnson's the most dangerous politician in Britain, and could be our Donald Trump, because people think he's 'a bit funny' and ignore his underlying agenda?

    But Johnson has no views or values whatsoever, about anything. It's all about positioning himself. Actually, though, you watch Gogglebox , and all the people on their sofas see through him instantly.

    Which is very gratifying. But they also all said, the people on Gogglebox who I think of like my friends, 'We've not got enough information to decide.

    In the live show, last year, there was a routine involving an England flag covered in cat diarrhoea, and the cat responsible was called Paul Nuttall From UKIP.

    In the TV show, the cat's called Jeremy Corbyn. Why the switch? Then within two weeks of the election, that whole routine fell off a cliff, because no-one was the least bit interested in him, or could remember who he really was.

    And I thought that was a shame, cos it was a good half hour, that. I did it one last time, at the start of September in a pub in Kingston, to prove to myself that it wasn't working.

    But then, that week, Corbyn got in trouble for not going to the rugby match, and not singing the national anthem.

    So, ideas of national identity are still such a big deal, but they're not attached to UKIP now. They're attached to attacking Corbyn.

    So I thought, how can I bring him into the same story? SL: I think he's an object lesson, in the way that the press have decided that whatever he does, they'll tear it apart.

    Just when I was starting to root for Cameron, when he was standing up for Europe, the next day he was really really pathetically rude to Corbyn in Parliament.

    Corbyn's like this weird Christ figure whose very presence reveals everyone else to be horrible cunts. But, you know, he is a Eurosceptic and I'm pro-Europe, and I'm not convinced about his defence position, all sorts of things.

    But it's nice that our children will grow up with an experience of what the Left meant. The new series contains possibly the most avant-garde thing you've done so far.

    There's a routine about the columnist Rod Liddle always looking like he's got food on him, and it ends with you just making a chomping sound into the microphone for five minutes, like Paul McCartney chewing celery on 'Vega-Tables' by The Beach Boys.

    And you've somehow got that onto national BBC television. SL: That's partly what I hope people will find funny about it. Not the thing itself, but the fact that it is on television.

    You know what's sad about that is, I filmed the shows in December, and all the dates had sold out so I added some more in January and February, but most of the routines peaked around the time I filmed it for telly.

    One, sadly, went off the boil round about September and I couldn't get it back, so I had to let it go. But one got better. And the one that got better was that one.

    I worked out how to time it, to make it funnier, even though there's no words in it. SL: That's what I want, you know?

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